For Money or Health?
Health seems to be the fallacy most commonly used by Anti-Smoking forces to rationalize smoking bans and smoking sin taxes.
In reality, politicians are not burdening smokers with such hardship causing sin taxes to save us from cancer. We are being taxed to balance the faultering, badly run state governments. Simply said, "They need the money."
Nobody really cares if a smoker gets cancer or not. The issue is money and the logic justifying the sin tax is false. Taxing a smoker to alter his/her behavioral decisions, is a total violation of that smoker's civil liberties. It is not the governments job to determine what is or is not a correct life style. The government is going beyond its role and it is lying to people.
Health is not the issue. It is about money!
For Example...
Should gays be give a AIDS tax because anal sex has a higher risk of passing the HIV virus? Should extreme sport enthusiasts be taxed for the obvious health risk to the participants. Should women who have children at a later age be taxed to cover the increased rate of ovarian cancer?
Should there be bad eating taxes, loud music taxes, late night with no sleep taxes, more than one glass of wine at dinner taxes? All of these taxes would save the health care systems money. Our health would improve if we were good little communists, ate three meals a day with plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables, exercised regularly, went to bed at 8 PM and gave up all of our vices.
Health would prevail. But what a shitty place to live.
Take the Case of Women.
Let's take the rationale for taxing smokers and apply it to women who don't get pregnant. Would anyone really agree with this?
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It is generally believed that women who have children before the age of 30 are less likely to get cancer. Therefore, it could be argued, women who choose not to have children before 30 are purposely choosing a dangerous lifestyle and putting the common good at risk. America does not have a health care system. Many of these women will get cancer without private insurance. Tax payers will end up paying the bill for these careless acts.
In order to compensate for this wanton act of refusing to get pregnant at the appropriate age, women who do not have children before the age of 30 should be taxed heavily.
By creating this non-pregnancy tax, more women will get pregnant before the age of 30 and their risk of cancer will decrease. We have the moral authority to take these steps, because they may die of cancer if we don't. Cancer is a horrible death. We are therefore taxing them to save them from their own stupidity.
We can also use this tax money, to shore up state budget deficits. We can also use this money to clean polluted waterways and to initiate city improvement programs.
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That's insane. That's a total violation of the rights of women. And it is the exact same thinking that is being used against smokers.
Non-Smokers Wake Up
Don't be fooled. The smoking issue is just the beginning. After it is impossible to be free to smoke and it has been banned out of existance, the money generated by cigarettes will need to be found somewhere. Another issue will be found with the same, illogical, emotional rationale. Who will be next? Will it be an excessive weight tax? An alcohol tax? A no baby before 30 tax?
I am not sure. The only thing I am sure about is that it will be non-smokers who pay then. There won't be any smokers left to pay the bill for you.
posted by blackhawk at 1:29 PM
30 Comments:
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
they are planning on fat taxes, or thats healhy food rebates..
I agree with you. I am wondering who is next. I am a light smoker, as I smoke one or two cigarettes a week. I feel like my rights are being taken away. Being female, overweight and childless (30 and over baby tax.) When are they going to place symbols on us and heard us off to concentration camps. Think about it...if you are not Christain, Overweight, Smoker, Female, Lesbian and short. You might as well dig a grave now...Sad nation we have become. CANADA RULES!
The problem with the analogy is that the people in the crowd don't have a choice. The people in the bar or restaurant or cigar store or sporting arena or any other place smoking has been banned have a choice to be there and can make a choice to leave if they are that affected by the smoke. Do not all activities done in public affect others.
The Nazis used health concerns as a logical reason to exterminate millions of handicapped people.
The religious fundamentalists started the anti-smoking "movement" years ago, along with their anti-gay movement and ironically using the same reasons for attacking both groups.
Non-smokers (particularly closet smokers) think they're safe...I found this today and ask the self-righteous: what do you think will happen once attention is turned to obesity & genetic pre-disposition to a particular disease?
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/
eandp/classifieds/
article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001771820
So now it's legal and praiseworthy to fire smokers?
It's particularly disgusting that Scott's Miracle Gro saturates lawns & gardens all over the US with chemicals & excess nitrates that cause more health problems than smoking ever did. Particularly among children.
Where will it end?
People it's not just about taxes! I'm not allowed to smoke on my breaks at work. I used to be able to run out side now I have to get in my car and run to the street. I have worked at the same job for 8 years working 12+hours a night. Jan 1st they went to a non-smokeing campus. Before they did this I was inidated with company e-mail stateing thatI need to quit and sign up for smoke free classes. I refused. There are places in my city that have outlawed the right to smoke in bars and on public streets. NO, this is not about just taxes anymore it's about my cons rights being violated, They call it the clean air act, f---in please! Do you see pol and gov agencies tell big corp to move out of twn if they don't start cleaning up the air? I dont know about everywhere else but here it stinks worse them it did a year ago. What about telling citizens they have to carpool? Is that next!!! Besides I would never blow smoke in a nonsmokers face, But they seem to think they can shove the law in mine.
When people make unhealthy choices it is their problem and it should only be their problem. Eating too much, having a baby later in life, and all the other things you mentioned only affect the person choosing to do those things. But if a smoker chooses to light up next to a mall exit or in a bowling alley or near their children, that person is hurting every one he or she comes in connect with and that is not fair.
There are actutally two issuses here. There is HEALTH and MONEY.
As to health, we need to look into what is put in Commercial cigarettes. Almost a thousand chemicals. The report is eight pages long,some I can't even pronounce, some I didn't and still don't want to know what I was smoking. Those of us in America and Canada, have the chance to smoke Native American made cigarettes.
These companies don't have the funds or the want to put chemicals in their cigarettes. They feel the chemicals are unneeded. Commercal cigarettes have fiber glass filters (cheaper), Native American has cotton (better for your lungs). The quality of these cigarettes is self evedent when you try them.
As to Money! Each of the States have ADDed and ADDed taxes onto Comercial cigarettes. To force the smoker to stop smoking. It had gotten so bad in CA. That I had to quit. Not because I wanted to but because I could not afford two smokers in my budget.
I quit For 6 years. At that time I worked at a convience store. When I smoked I cleaned up the out side of the biulding while I had a cigarette. After I quit,my manager would ask why the trash outside was not changed or the parking lot not swept. I told him to ask the smokers, since I wasn't going outside to have a cigarette. I wasn't out there at all. I did other stuff needed inside the store. In efect my habits changed when I quit. My husband continued to smoke and I respected him enough not to complain about his smoking. He is an adult and has the right to choose to smoke if he wished to. I never wanted to quit. I enjoyed smoking very much and I now enjoy it again Because....
I have since found Native American made cigarettes. It took me awhile. I really thought about it for about 3 months, and relized that I liked smoking. So I found the brand that I like and started again. The only difference is that I am not smoking any of the junk put in comercial cigarettes. I find these Tribal cigarettes to be superior to the major brands. They are affordable and I love them.
If you want to smoke at home or outdoors, that's your problem. But when you choose to smoke next to me in a bar or a restaurant, it becomes my problem.
Can I buy cigarettes from you guys for cheap...?
Can I become a reseller of your cigarettes online!
thanks!
Where is the "Fat" Tax?
Clearly, obesity and obesity related illness kills more Americans each year.
You're more likely to be killed in a car accident than by breathing secon hand smoke.
Apparently, if you're fat, fugetaboutit, you're toast! AND you're breaking the health care bank, draining the insurance coffers which causes rates to rise and future generations to have to work that many more hours to pay for your gluttony.
No, smokers aren't killing people, second hand smoke isn't even killing people. I agree smoking stinks, it tastes horrible, it even looks trashy, but it certainly should remain a choice and businesses should be able to allow it or not.
In the same way we give women the ability to kill their unwanted babies, we should give smokers some leeway.
The demonization of a faction of people is an old strategy. It works, based on fear and the unknown.
Where are the statistics that directly connect second hand smoke to higher cancer rates. The hard numbers? There aren't any. There are only close ties to cases of cancer with those who "Also lived with a smoker". Their cancer may have been caused by any number of environmental, sociological, geneological variables. It just so happened that they ALSO lived with a smoker so the second hand smoke gets left holding the gun. It makes the most sense and it's a great tool to further one agenda.
BUT we don't legislate lifestyle on things that "Make the most sense". We pass legislation to protect the public health. So now we are into protecting the public from itself. And if we are to do that then we should also get rid of the other SINS, alcohol, all drugs etc.
Alcohol related accidents cost more and kill more people each year than tobacco and any other substance in America. No one want to talk about it because everyone likes to "get their drunk on" and have fun. I'm all for it. BUT, let's not, in the name of "protecting the public health", make false claims about smoking.
:::Final Thoughts:::
Make no mistake. The last 10 years have seen a dramatic shift in politics in the US. The anti-smoking crowd is politically motivated.
Here's a question: Historically, which lobbying group has been one of the largest contributors to Republican campaigns nationwide ? Tobacco Co's.
What's the lobbying structure in Washington when it come to Tobacco Company's, who own what anymore? I wouldn't be surprised if GM owned a tobacco brand nowadays.
In the end it's about POWER.
Forget your lifelong Democrat voting aunt who's dying of cancer because she sucked down unfiltered Pal Mal's for thirty years. The anti-smoker gangs could give a shit less about her and her unhealthy choice of living. They want the lawsuit money, for anti-smoking marketing campaigns, to reach the youth market, who are the next generation of voters, who won't be supporting the RNC lobbyists through cigarette purchases.
This is a freaking awsome topic, I have to do a Controversial speech for a class and this will do. I am a non smoker, but I did smoke for 10 years. I dont care for smokeing or the smell. But I do agree that it is a persons freedom of choice. This is America right? When I go into a bar to distroy my liver and some one next to me is distroying there lungs whats the flipin difference? If I dont like that someone is smokeing next to me then I move away--DU. If some one has realy bad gass do you stay next to them to smell it? no. Mabe there should be a law or tax ageinst farting in public. Man taco bell would have a problem lol.
It's plain and simple extortion by the states. The reason they can do this and get away with it is because we are in the minority. People who sit idly by don't realize that the tactics used on us are being refined to be used on the next minority group. the obese?
Regarding nd hand smoke,The fumes from the cars around you in traffic is much more dangerous then second hand smoke. You won't see anyone giving up their cars.
1. New form of prejudice.
2. Smoking tax was to pay for the Health bill claimed to be caused by smokers, not everyone else. No money has gone to pay for the health of smokers, the opposite, smoker? is on every medical record resulting in denial of treatment. Lung cancer is not funded at all, even those showing no evidence of smoking being the cause.
3. All medical research is now compromised by singling out smokers. Even when smoking shows no relationship to the results.
4. Cancer is caused by nano and micro organisms in sludge put on crops and disposed of locally and on playing fields with inadequate environmental laws to stop them spreading in air and through insects and animals and contaminating food including yeast and eggs. Tobacco is less likely to spread them because you set it on fire.
5. Radio 2:1 smokers have toxic amalgam fillings. The mercury removes lithium from the body and increases the sense of smell. Tobacco regulates serrotonin and dopamine in the absence of lithium. That is why so many non smokers are uptight on psych meds, they are delusional. Now the drug companies know smoking prevents concentration loss, they are designing a new drug to replace tobacco, of course it will be far more toxic than a natural plant.
My little sister died last year due to complications from my mother's second hand smoke. To say that your smoking doesn't affect other, innocent people who would prefer not to inhale your cancer, is ignorant. People who eat to much and do extreme sports, or have children after 30 are only endangering themselves...Not the innocent people around them.
Smoking will probably be banned in 90% of all bars in the next 10 years. It's not a matter of the customer having the option of going somewhere else, it's about workers' rights.
The whole "if you don't like smoke don't work here" argument is ludicrous.. what about a hazmat company that doesn't provide adequate protection and says "if you don't like breathing asbestos don't work here"?
If you're a smoker, get used to it. As of last year my company made our entire campus smoke free - you can't even smoke in your vehicle while it's parked on the grounds. Now the phlegm-heads either get to go 4 hours without a nicotine fix or take a 10 minute hike to the main gate to light up. The ones that do aren't exactly endearing themselves to the managers.
You want the right to smoke? Fine. But I want the right not to have to employ your stinky ass.
I think non smokers are jerks. If one of you gets in my face about my smoking i am going to knock you down. I am not going to be a nice guy any longer. I am tired of you and your "second hand cause" Hey, I am lighting up right now. Wish you were here, I would blow smoke in your face and pray you would die. love and kisses
anon said Wish you were here, I would blow smoke in your face and pray you would die. love and kisses
LOL.. read the health section once in a while - you're the one that's gonna die phlegm-head!
Good luck with the heart disease, various cancers, impotence, bad breath, tooth decay, and eye problems while you're on your way there..
Man, how stupid do you have to be to be a smoker nowadays??!! Do any of you retards actually think you look cool to the rest of us?
HI Anon: What happened to your back bone when you wrote the post. You talk really big on a computer, but, you sound like some weenie boy geek. Last I check we are still in America. I and a lot of the other smokers pax additional tax for my cigarettes to pay for many different government programs that more than likely you are using. So get off the hobby horse. We pay the extra taxes. Do you want to? What do you think would happen if we quit. DUHHHHHHHH. WE ARE THE ONES KICKED TO THE STREET BECAUSE WE SMOKE.
eric, I know you pay a lot of additional taxes for the privilege of being treated like a piece of human garbage - that's why you guys are so awe inspiringly stupid!!
Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against making money off you. Fact is, I made about a 10% return off Altria stock last year before selling off at the end of the year.
You know the beauty of this? We can crank up the tax as much as we want - you're gonna bitch and moan and threaten to quit, but we all know you're not.. hell, this is a surer thing than dealing crack..
You still talk BIG, but you are still to wimpy to put your name out there. You SUPOSEDLY made all this money off smoker shows where your mentality lies. The point is who is next. I don't get treated like trash because, I don't go out to the restaurant or bars. I stay home were I can smoke with out people like you getting in my face. When I'm out and have a cigarette stay away from me and don't make any comments, because the smoke that I was trying to direct away from you will now be blown at you. As to the restaurants and bars, do you support them? Do you make up for the revenue that those of us smokers used to give them , because of them being nonsmoking. I smoke Native American cigarettes which are Chemical free. What are you going to do when they outlaw liquor, and they run the fast food places out of town. Are you going to have the same hateful words for the people that have a forum such as this for them. Before you get back on your hobby horse about my smoking. Take a look at your self. The people that like to think they can fix others usually have a lot wrong with them selves. Do you smoke pot? Prescription drugs? Illegal drugs? all of which is worse for you than my smoking.
Hey, Eric, way to go. Non smokers are really stupid aren't they? They actually think they won this war. No way. What I say to all smokers that are lucky enough to find this web site is: Go Native American for your cigs. That's right. I did and boy am I glad. You get a great tasting chemical free alternative to the Major brands. Not only that, they are tax exempt. YOU HEARD ME RIGHT. NO TAXES TO GIVE TO YOUR STATE. Show the States, non smokers and everyone else who wants a piece of your money. Don't give it to them. Give it to the Native American tobacco companies. As to this idiot who actually thinks he knows what he is talking about. It's never been about Smoking. It is about personal freedoms in America. You people who think you have "done something to the smoker" need to understand that this is only the beginning. You are next. Do you think you will be exempt from all of this just because you don't smoke? HAH! you need to wake up, just like the smokers are doing. Do you think you can dictate to one part of the population and get away with it. We have just begun to fight back. You are probably a Pot smoker (talk about stink) You probably drink where ever you are. You look at porn (probably Kiddy) and God knows what else you do in your free time. This is so much worse then lighting a cigarette. Anyway, you are a looser in my book. God help all of you non smokers, because this is not over until the fat lady sings. As to all the health issues you sited Mr anonymous (coward): all I can say is you are unbelievably crude. You think it is OK to say these things to smokers? this is Hate talk. If I were a minority I could sue you for this. But because you are a coward and in response I said it back this won't happen. But, if you ever say it face to face, you could get your ass sued. Hate is Hate, and it is a crime. But, for now all I can say is: Stupid is as Stupid does, and you are very stupid indeed. Thanks for listening, Pat's P.J.'s
labitemeeric -- "I smoke Native American cigarettes which are Chemical free."
Damn, it's like watching a chimpanzee trying to do calculus..
FYI, Einstein - pretty much everything around you is composed of "chemicals". For example, paper, tobacco, and for that matter, air, are made of chemicals. If you're smoking something that's chemical-free, that would have to be a chunk of vacuum.
So I'll go out on a limb and assume you mean "additive" free..
Alas, it's not the chemicals, it's the fact that you're burning something and pushing the smoke through your lungs that's screwing up just about every system in your body. You can smoke 100% pure tobacco and still get emphysema, impotence, gingivitis, glaucoma.. I'll continue the list on a later post since it's pretty long..
But please don't let me discourage you from your nasty little addiction. While you're in the privacy of your stinky home, I want you to puff down 5 or 6 packs a day minimum. That's YOUR tax money which is going to pay for services for ME, which is why us non smokers are laughing our asses off at what a moron you are.
I would leave my name, but then I would probably get sued for sure. See, I'm in human resources and my company, though not officially, would rather hire a convicted child molester with a gaping chest wound than a smoker. Again, just a matter of money. Our health costs have gone down since we made our campus smokefree and started making life as difficult for smokers as we legally can. You either quit smoking or you quit being employed.. LOL
Have to admit - it's still a kick driving through our main gate in the middle of December and watching the pathetic five or six that have walked a quarter mile in the snow to have a smoke - gonna miss that I guess..
pat's said YOU HEARD ME RIGHT. NO TAXES TO GIVE TO YOUR STATE.
Heheh.. dream on.. Maybe you should Google "use tax" at some point, unless you're actually smoking the cigs on a reservation..
Here's one reference:
http://tinyurl.com/lsluo
As you can see from the article, one guy thought he was getting away with it until he got that nice $1300 tax bill from the state. And if you decide not to pay it, they just take your house or throw you in jail.
As soon as enough people start buying cigarettes online, all the states have to do is enforce their EXISTING use tax regulations. Right now it's just easier squeezing the dumbasses who'll pay $4 a pack at the gas station, but they'll be after you before too long..
WOW Mr Annon gosh you said it all. Gee you've got me over a barrel. WOW I guess you win (hold on a moment.....) I'm speechless (PUFF-PUFF) I guess we'll call you king of the mountain. I really have nothing more to say except that while you had diarrhea of the mouth I had three cigarettes. Thank you
Wow, pat's, considering smoking messes up your brain, there should be some sort of law against illiterate dumbasses such as yourself even starting the habit!
Maybe you should save the money from a couple of packs and buy a "dictionary", which will let you know that it's spelled "anon".
Thanks for contributing the taxes from the three cigarettes dumbass, unlike some of the other nonsmokers I love watching you guys smoke, taxes for me and emphysema for you - good luck with the campaigning when your lungs feel like they're filled with seaweed..
ANON,
Your the DUMBASS you do not have to smoke them on a reservation you have to by them on a reservation. If you are going to quote the Jenkins Act you might want to actually read it only has to do with Commercial cigarettes not the one that are made by the Native American.
ANON,
Your the DUMBASS you do not have to smoke them on a reservation you have to by them on a reservation. If you are going to quote the Jenkins Act you might want to actually read it only has to do with Commercial cigarettes not the one that are made by the Native American.
Sorry for the second posting computers don't work as fast has peoples brains some times
anon said: "Your the DUMBASS you do not have to smoke them on a reservation you have to by them on a reservation.
Wow, where are you reading the law - the back of a pack of smokes?
Check this out:
http://tinyurl.com/lu9t9
Specifically from that:
"Cigarette Use Tax is applicable to any person who brings cigarettes into Illinois for use in Illinois."
Other states have similar ones..
btw, the Native American brands even though additive free use the same genetically engineered high potency tobacco as commercial ones - to keep your ass hooked for life.
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